Reply to Daisy
Friday, August 26. 2005
Trackbacks
Trackback specific URI for this entry
No Trackbacks
Comments
Display comments as
(Linear | Threaded)
WOW! airheads are speaking! wat am i saying..ofcourse they r! they're also called ignorant americans who have delighlty accepted thier media brainwash policies without trying to figure facts from bullshit! Dear throned Daisy may I suggest you get busy researching your super intelligent accusations before you start firing comments that make you sound every bit STUPID.
Ammar, well said.
Daisy, in a way, you are right. Those who attacked did attack because they do not have freedom- America barged in and is now running their countries illicitly, it kills their men, women, and children, and then it goes and declares that they are the terrorists. You have to look at the larger context in order to understand why a certain incident takes place, and I will quote one of the most famous speeches in American history, "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" The wars you are waging outside your soils contradict the very edicts that your country was built upon, and you should be the ones who understand precisely the reaction that these poor people are being forced to show.
Then, on the other hand, we, as Arabs and as Muslims, in no way condone hostility and violence. As you can see in the events of the past year that have occurred all over the Arab world from Saudi Arabia, to Egypt, to Qatar, terrorism affects us even more so than it affects you, and on a much broader scale because we understand the complexities involved. What Ammar was referring to in his previous post, if I am correct, is the fact that yes, this is not condonable, but we should be very careful with what we say because Arabs are involved in the complexities that helped in forming the political scene of today.
And you refer to the Arab culture as the "fuel for ignorance and hatred" then you say that it is formed by Islam. The Arab region probably has a history that is more diverse than any other region in this world. Throughout the millennia, we have been ruled by Babylonians, Aramaeans, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Ottomans, Arabs, and many others. We have given way to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The culture that has accumulated is but a collection of the different mentalities of the various peoples and religions that are harbored in this area, and Islam is but a facet.
Our culture has no hatred, people from different diversities that you probably have never even heard of and different religions have been living peacefully together in the region for millennia. Hatred is formed by outside influences, and I repeat, "Give me liberty or give me death".
As for equality in religions, I will not even attempt to discuss that because any cultured person would have never said that, but I will tell you to get your facts checked before you launch a dispute.
Islam has not produced any more tyrants than any other religion, because, ultimately, all religions have been misused as marketing tools in one way or another throughout their existence. People use it as a way to legally/lawfully gain power, as you can see in the course of world history and up to this day.
And babe, during the Middle Ages, while the West was sinking in the dark ages and burning treasures of Greek manuscripts, the Muslims were in their golden age. That is when we gave way to medicine, algebra, and many other facets of science that helped bring the world to what it is today. During the Middle Ages while you were under the mighty rule of the Church, Arabs, regardless of religion, were building libraries that the world still talks about, producing wonderful leaders such as Haroon Il Rashid, and prospering. Heck, at least we were taking baths! Look up "Mozarabs", a social phenomena that happened in Medieval Europe while Islam spread there, "Some Christian authorities were scandalized at how the young ones preferred the Arabic culture and language and, in 851, tried to raise confrontation by publicly offending Islam. They expected that, by becoming martyrs, they would visibilize the conflict. The Islamic authorities, however, chose to consider them as madmen, thus deflecting tensions." And you call those authorities tyrants?
And please, kindly spare me the effort and also research your information about Islam before you called a simple shepherd who was actually known by Christians and Jews to be very prudent and wise a "thief", a "murder", and a "warlord". Kindly also research the status of women in pre-Islamic Arabia before you call him a "misogynist" and a "child molester."
Daisy, in a way, you are right. Those who attacked did attack because they do not have freedom- America barged in and is now running their countries illicitly, it kills their men, women, and children, and then it goes and declares that they are the terrorists. You have to look at the larger context in order to understand why a certain incident takes place, and I will quote one of the most famous speeches in American history, "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!" The wars you are waging outside your soils contradict the very edicts that your country was built upon, and you should be the ones who understand precisely the reaction that these poor people are being forced to show.
Then, on the other hand, we, as Arabs and as Muslims, in no way condone hostility and violence. As you can see in the events of the past year that have occurred all over the Arab world from Saudi Arabia, to Egypt, to Qatar, terrorism affects us even more so than it affects you, and on a much broader scale because we understand the complexities involved. What Ammar was referring to in his previous post, if I am correct, is the fact that yes, this is not condonable, but we should be very careful with what we say because Arabs are involved in the complexities that helped in forming the political scene of today.
And you refer to the Arab culture as the "fuel for ignorance and hatred" then you say that it is formed by Islam. The Arab region probably has a history that is more diverse than any other region in this world. Throughout the millennia, we have been ruled by Babylonians, Aramaeans, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Ottomans, Arabs, and many others. We have given way to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. The culture that has accumulated is but a collection of the different mentalities of the various peoples and religions that are harbored in this area, and Islam is but a facet.
Our culture has no hatred, people from different diversities that you probably have never even heard of and different religions have been living peacefully together in the region for millennia. Hatred is formed by outside influences, and I repeat, "Give me liberty or give me death".
As for equality in religions, I will not even attempt to discuss that because any cultured person would have never said that, but I will tell you to get your facts checked before you launch a dispute.
Islam has not produced any more tyrants than any other religion, because, ultimately, all religions have been misused as marketing tools in one way or another throughout their existence. People use it as a way to legally/lawfully gain power, as you can see in the course of world history and up to this day.
And babe, during the Middle Ages, while the West was sinking in the dark ages and burning treasures of Greek manuscripts, the Muslims were in their golden age. That is when we gave way to medicine, algebra, and many other facets of science that helped bring the world to what it is today. During the Middle Ages while you were under the mighty rule of the Church, Arabs, regardless of religion, were building libraries that the world still talks about, producing wonderful leaders such as Haroon Il Rashid, and prospering. Heck, at least we were taking baths! Look up "Mozarabs", a social phenomena that happened in Medieval Europe while Islam spread there, "Some Christian authorities were scandalized at how the young ones preferred the Arabic culture and language and, in 851, tried to raise confrontation by publicly offending Islam. They expected that, by becoming martyrs, they would visibilize the conflict. The Islamic authorities, however, chose to consider them as madmen, thus deflecting tensions." And you call those authorities tyrants?
And please, kindly spare me the effort and also research your information about Islam before you called a simple shepherd who was actually known by Christians and Jews to be very prudent and wise a "thief", a "murder", and a "warlord". Kindly also research the status of women in pre-Islamic Arabia before you call him a "misogynist" and a "child molester."
If American does something wrong then America is responsible. If Muslim despotic regimes do wrong things (apart from the usual despotic things they routinely do wrong) than, of course, we look at Islam. There is no separation of religion and state in Islam in case you've not noticed. Unfortunately, Islamist regimes are not known to take responsibility for their own wrongs. Islamists only know how to blame.
The only thing reflexive about 9-11 is the usual reactionary blame of others that Muslim Arabs in particular practice in place of self-responsibility. I'd go into the dynamics of the construction of an inferiority complex but I'd rather not. You can look that up on your own.
As far as sex w/animals, see the beloved Ayatollah Kohmeni's fatwahs on the subject. They are a matter of public (albeit weird) record.
As far as Islamist nut-cases in the ME 'blowing themselves off' (fair to say along with major numbers of innocent others) yes, that's exactly what we call it: Islamist suicide-bombing terrorism.
Interesting that you chose Germany as a comparative example. Many more comparisons to be made between Germany's Fascism and Islamism
I'm glad your best friend is Christian ... sounds like a tolerant person. This could be a good beginning to a necessary religious reformation (as long as you don't inflict a dhimmi tax upon your friend!).
Islam is not under undue attack. Islam is the attacker. How on earth would you recommend people look at Islam if not forthrightly and honestly? You attack America with both impunity and ignorance -- but when Islam comes under scrutiny you have a temper tantrum.
Incidentally, I'm sorry you were spanked as a student. That's awful. I suggest that you take a look at how that may have formed your enthrallment to your oppressors. You're safe now. You're in the USA. Child abuse is against the law.
The only thing reflexive about 9-11 is the usual reactionary blame of others that Muslim Arabs in particular practice in place of self-responsibility. I'd go into the dynamics of the construction of an inferiority complex but I'd rather not. You can look that up on your own.
As far as sex w/animals, see the beloved Ayatollah Kohmeni's fatwahs on the subject. They are a matter of public (albeit weird) record.
As far as Islamist nut-cases in the ME 'blowing themselves off' (fair to say along with major numbers of innocent others) yes, that's exactly what we call it: Islamist suicide-bombing terrorism.
Interesting that you chose Germany as a comparative example. Many more comparisons to be made between Germany's Fascism and Islamism
I'm glad your best friend is Christian ... sounds like a tolerant person. This could be a good beginning to a necessary religious reformation (as long as you don't inflict a dhimmi tax upon your friend!).
Islam is not under undue attack. Islam is the attacker. How on earth would you recommend people look at Islam if not forthrightly and honestly? You attack America with both impunity and ignorance -- but when Islam comes under scrutiny you have a temper tantrum.
Incidentally, I'm sorry you were spanked as a student. That's awful. I suggest that you take a look at how that may have formed your enthrallment to your oppressors. You're safe now. You're in the USA. Child abuse is against the law.
Well Daisy I do not blame you for being extremly misinformed about Islam and its fundemental beliefs. I truly hope that it is western media that led you to all these stereotypes because this is very expected.
With utmost certainty, Islam can NOT be blamed for 9/11, nor could it be for London's July 7th.
Rest assured that it was the American foreign policy that flamed the tragic actions going on in the world today.
Bush's administration and its advocates are the sole winners of such attacks; bases all across the oil-full Gulf region (with the biggest base in the heart of the Gulf region, Qatar), full geared armies (armed with WMD's) in 52 countries of which 17 are Arabic.
All this is under the fictional label of 'WAR ON TERRORISM'. Well if Bush is too damn good in being overprotective by spreading ready forces here and there, then I ask, why isn't he able to just get done with the war on Iraq, bombings happening here and there, etc...
I get disgusted when I read the term Islamic terrorism. Why would the media link EVERYTHING bad happening around the world to Islam.
Back in the 1980's and 90's, it was common to hear about the IRA's (Irish Republican Army) bombings around England. Were the actions of the IRA ever labeled as Catholic, or Christian terrorism?? Never!!!
Daisy, I am currently on a long vacation in the UK. Before I came here, I have heard a lot about the biased western media. But I never would have thought it would be that biased against Arabs and Muslims.
British media have covered 'Israeli's' evacuation of colonized Gaza Strip as the most tragic era in mankind.
http://www.mahjoob.com/en/archives/view.php?cartoonid=1579
I wonder if the Palestinians felt the same when over 200,000 unarmed civilians were killed with cold blood(including famous massacres like Deir Yaseen, Al Dawaymeh, and the like)and over 2 million evacuated from their ancestor's land in the wars of 1948 and 1967.
Men in hundrends were killed simultaneuosly, women were raped to death, etc...
The focal point of our struggle lies in Summerfield's intro in a very touching article I happen to read a few weaks ago http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/assault.html. Summerfield, the honorary senior lecturer at the Institute of Psychiatry of London, asks a SIMPLE question; 'Does the death of an Arab weigh the same as that of a US or Israeli citizen??'
Daisy, I hope I cleared some of your flawful concerns about Islam and Arabs.
History is fully sheded with tearful moments were Islam and Arabs were being supressed. To that, I condemn the media for hiding the true reality.
With utmost certainty, Islam can NOT be blamed for 9/11, nor could it be for London's July 7th.
Rest assured that it was the American foreign policy that flamed the tragic actions going on in the world today.
Bush's administration and its advocates are the sole winners of such attacks; bases all across the oil-full Gulf region (with the biggest base in the heart of the Gulf region, Qatar), full geared armies (armed with WMD's) in 52 countries of which 17 are Arabic.
All this is under the fictional label of 'WAR ON TERRORISM'. Well if Bush is too damn good in being overprotective by spreading ready forces here and there, then I ask, why isn't he able to just get done with the war on Iraq, bombings happening here and there, etc...
I get disgusted when I read the term Islamic terrorism. Why would the media link EVERYTHING bad happening around the world to Islam.
Back in the 1980's and 90's, it was common to hear about the IRA's (Irish Republican Army) bombings around England. Were the actions of the IRA ever labeled as Catholic, or Christian terrorism?? Never!!!
Daisy, I am currently on a long vacation in the UK. Before I came here, I have heard a lot about the biased western media. But I never would have thought it would be that biased against Arabs and Muslims.
British media have covered 'Israeli's' evacuation of colonized Gaza Strip as the most tragic era in mankind.
http://www.mahjoob.com/en/archives/view.php?cartoonid=1579
I wonder if the Palestinians felt the same when over 200,000 unarmed civilians were killed with cold blood(including famous massacres like Deir Yaseen, Al Dawaymeh, and the like)and over 2 million evacuated from their ancestor's land in the wars of 1948 and 1967.
Men in hundrends were killed simultaneuosly, women were raped to death, etc...
The focal point of our struggle lies in Summerfield's intro in a very touching article I happen to read a few weaks ago http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/assault.html. Summerfield, the honorary senior lecturer at the Institute of Psychiatry of London, asks a SIMPLE question; 'Does the death of an Arab weigh the same as that of a US or Israeli citizen??'
Daisy, I hope I cleared some of your flawful concerns about Islam and Arabs.
History is fully sheded with tearful moments were Islam and Arabs were being supressed. To that, I condemn the media for hiding the true reality.
Daisy,
Why dont two Americans talk about this issue.
Your president, not mine because i voted for the other guy, says he talks to God. Hmmm, so I take it that your presiednt, the one who talks to God, decided to go into Iraq and kill innocent Iraqis based on lies, as well putting his own men an women in harms way, allowing my fellow brothers and sisters in the U.S. army to die based on lies. Wow, I wonder what God your president is talking to, because I, as a catholic, know that the God I pray to does not believe in violence.
okay, i hope i made my point. any person who commits a violent act in the name of god or any religion, is a sinner and is raping their own religion. Islam is not what fanatics claim it is. go read the koran for yourself then comment then you can give your opinion about it.
okay, let me think of another christian who talks to god yet thinks violence should be used to achieve something: can you say Pat Robertson?
Daisy, the ver idea that you are bad mouthing a religion shows you are just as bad as these fanatics.
I would suggest you stop relying on popular news media an actually go to the library and read a book every once in a while and brush up on your history.
lastly, while child abuse is illegal in the U.S., it is unfortunate that our priest are raping and molesting young boys on a daily basis, and there is no outrage going on in this country.
I am catholic and I am disgusted and upset with the leaders of my church. it saddens me that americans never really stood up and said they would not take this any more.
so as you can see, the entire world is screwed up, so before you go and point at someone or something else you do not even know about, i suggest you take a look at yourself and everything else that is going on in your own backyard.
Why dont two Americans talk about this issue.
Your president, not mine because i voted for the other guy, says he talks to God. Hmmm, so I take it that your presiednt, the one who talks to God, decided to go into Iraq and kill innocent Iraqis based on lies, as well putting his own men an women in harms way, allowing my fellow brothers and sisters in the U.S. army to die based on lies. Wow, I wonder what God your president is talking to, because I, as a catholic, know that the God I pray to does not believe in violence.
okay, i hope i made my point. any person who commits a violent act in the name of god or any religion, is a sinner and is raping their own religion. Islam is not what fanatics claim it is. go read the koran for yourself then comment then you can give your opinion about it.
okay, let me think of another christian who talks to god yet thinks violence should be used to achieve something: can you say Pat Robertson?
Daisy, the ver idea that you are bad mouthing a religion shows you are just as bad as these fanatics.
I would suggest you stop relying on popular news media an actually go to the library and read a book every once in a while and brush up on your history.
lastly, while child abuse is illegal in the U.S., it is unfortunate that our priest are raping and molesting young boys on a daily basis, and there is no outrage going on in this country.
I am catholic and I am disgusted and upset with the leaders of my church. it saddens me that americans never really stood up and said they would not take this any more.
so as you can see, the entire world is screwed up, so before you go and point at someone or something else you do not even know about, i suggest you take a look at yourself and everything else that is going on in your own backyard.
Linda, your world view is too dismal to engage with in any sort of productive way, so I won't. Also, I simply cannot bear people who hate my country. But, like it or lump it Linda, George Bush is your President.
Roba, your passion and pride in your religion is moving. Unfortunately, you are unwilling to look at the darker realities that form a very substantial part of your religious culture. This is a shame, especially since you seem like such a bright and optimistic person. I'm sure you could handle the truth about Islam and not be shattered.
Bob, your consternation over media bias is shared by me. This is why I have chosen to read extensively about Islam. After an immersion in all things Islamic (since 9-11) I have come to the (admittedly grim ) conclusion that the very religion is fundamentally flawed and further, that it serves as a template for violence and has done so from its inception.
I would never attempt to prohibit the practice of Islam in this country as long as Muslims abide by the law of the land and don't hide behind their religion in order to commit crime. Just remember that tolerance in no way signals approval. In no way do I approve of Islam. Nor, by the way, do I approve of religions that use cannibalism as an expression of religious faith. Cannibalism as a religious sacrament or for any other reason, is prohibited in this country, as well it should be prohibited. "Honor" murders are also prohibited, even though they are proclaimed as religious obligations by Muslims. Unfortunately, this prohibition has not kept honor murders from occurring in this country. These crimes have been ignored in the name of religious tolerance. This is wrong. We can not make exceptions for sociopaths who practice antisocial behavior in the name of their antisocial religion.
We need to deal with the reality of Islam, not the fantasy. All religions are not created equal. Deal with it.
Roba, your passion and pride in your religion is moving. Unfortunately, you are unwilling to look at the darker realities that form a very substantial part of your religious culture. This is a shame, especially since you seem like such a bright and optimistic person. I'm sure you could handle the truth about Islam and not be shattered.
Bob, your consternation over media bias is shared by me. This is why I have chosen to read extensively about Islam. After an immersion in all things Islamic (since 9-11) I have come to the (admittedly grim ) conclusion that the very religion is fundamentally flawed and further, that it serves as a template for violence and has done so from its inception.
I would never attempt to prohibit the practice of Islam in this country as long as Muslims abide by the law of the land and don't hide behind their religion in order to commit crime. Just remember that tolerance in no way signals approval. In no way do I approve of Islam. Nor, by the way, do I approve of religions that use cannibalism as an expression of religious faith. Cannibalism as a religious sacrament or for any other reason, is prohibited in this country, as well it should be prohibited. "Honor" murders are also prohibited, even though they are proclaimed as religious obligations by Muslims. Unfortunately, this prohibition has not kept honor murders from occurring in this country. These crimes have been ignored in the name of religious tolerance. This is wrong. We can not make exceptions for sociopaths who practice antisocial behavior in the name of their antisocial religion.
We need to deal with the reality of Islam, not the fantasy. All religions are not created equal. Deal with it.
Daisy,
Do not kid yourself. America is my country just as much it is yours. I was born and raised in this country and very proud of that.
But, let me just tell you this. When a person uses the excuse of "oh i cant even bother to argue with you, yada yada yada," that says you cant back up what you have to say. And what I have to say is dull? So just because i believe in respect for all and non-violence I am dull? So if i made racist remarks, would that make you want to continue the conversation with me?
Lets just face it. It seems you are too closed minded to see Islam, and all religions for that matter, for what it truly is. Islam is a peaceful religion. It is people like bin laden, george bush, pat robertson, hitler who give religion a bad name.
If you are not willing to open up that mind of yours, and see that Islam is indeed a peaceful religion, then you are what we call here in America a "racist." But i will not resort to calling you any thing negative, because unlike the god the above people pray to, i pray to the God who believes in love and respect for all, and forgiveness.
And again, Bush is not my president because I did not vote for him.
Do not kid yourself. America is my country just as much it is yours. I was born and raised in this country and very proud of that.
But, let me just tell you this. When a person uses the excuse of "oh i cant even bother to argue with you, yada yada yada," that says you cant back up what you have to say. And what I have to say is dull? So just because i believe in respect for all and non-violence I am dull? So if i made racist remarks, would that make you want to continue the conversation with me?
Lets just face it. It seems you are too closed minded to see Islam, and all religions for that matter, for what it truly is. Islam is a peaceful religion. It is people like bin laden, george bush, pat robertson, hitler who give religion a bad name.
If you are not willing to open up that mind of yours, and see that Islam is indeed a peaceful religion, then you are what we call here in America a "racist." But i will not resort to calling you any thing negative, because unlike the god the above people pray to, i pray to the God who believes in love and respect for all, and forgiveness.
And again, Bush is not my president because I did not vote for him.
Daisy,
It is great that you have read about Islam. You seem to be very enlightened.
Well i've been muslim for 21 years now. Would you please ENLIGHTEN me where is it exactly in Islam, according to you, it is 'fundamentally flawed and further'????What measurement standards did you exactly use to jump into this conclusion??
I also must not waste a chance in congratulating your religious and social tolerance. The American army, by far, has the worst log in recent history.
The American army barbarically killed between 100,000 and 180,000 civillians in Hiroshima alone using nuclear bombs. These bombs contaminated hundreds of sq. kilometers for long periods of time.
http://www.cnduk.org/pages/ed/impact_h01.html
These bombs were deployed when the American clearly knew that the Japs were about to send Ambassadors to Washington to surrender during WWII.
What tolerance are you talking about?
Your president is obsessed with oil fever. Can you explain what exactly is the role of the American troops in every gulf country??
Daisy. I suggest that whenever you want to share an idea, specially if its something none has ever heard of, I advise you to provide some proof for your inexistent credebility.
It is great that you have read about Islam. You seem to be very enlightened.
Well i've been muslim for 21 years now. Would you please ENLIGHTEN me where is it exactly in Islam, according to you, it is 'fundamentally flawed and further'????What measurement standards did you exactly use to jump into this conclusion??
I also must not waste a chance in congratulating your religious and social tolerance. The American army, by far, has the worst log in recent history.
The American army barbarically killed between 100,000 and 180,000 civillians in Hiroshima alone using nuclear bombs. These bombs contaminated hundreds of sq. kilometers for long periods of time.
http://www.cnduk.org/pages/ed/impact_h01.html
These bombs were deployed when the American clearly knew that the Japs were about to send Ambassadors to Washington to surrender during WWII.
What tolerance are you talking about?
Your president is obsessed with oil fever. Can you explain what exactly is the role of the American troops in every gulf country??
Daisy. I suggest that whenever you want to share an idea, specially if its something none has ever heard of, I advise you to provide some proof for your inexistent credebility.
Ammar, tbob, Linda and Roba...well said.I was so enraged to read her racist, counterfactual comments. Unfortunately, Daisy is so narrow-minded and pigheaded that I'm afraid you're wasting your time.
I pity you, Daisy.
I pity you, Daisy.
Daisy, it's quite ironic that I came off as religious, because I am not. What I believe in is close to deism, where I believe that reason, rather than revelation or tradition, should be the basis of belief in God.
I do not judge a person by whether they worship Venus, Jesus, Allah, or Buddha, I judge a person by their mental acumen and their ability to live their life as guided by logic, tolerance, and kindness.
It is quite ironic that you ignored the rest of my previous comment and concentrated on the religious aspect(which I shared because I hate ignorance and have a general burning need to eradicate it, all arguments not based on historical facts and logical argument are intolerable to me), because my main defensive point was on the Arab culture.
You call it "dark realities", and Daisy, let me assure you, that both Christians and Muslims share this beloved Arab culture, and hang on to it. If only you give a deeper look at the Jordanian blogosphere for example, you will find that it has Muslims and Christians(but you wouldn't be able to recognize which is which, because we do not differenciate between people based on religious conviction, but rather, brains), all of who are passionately celebrating a joint culture.
I do not judge a person by whether they worship Venus, Jesus, Allah, or Buddha, I judge a person by their mental acumen and their ability to live their life as guided by logic, tolerance, and kindness.
It is quite ironic that you ignored the rest of my previous comment and concentrated on the religious aspect(which I shared because I hate ignorance and have a general burning need to eradicate it, all arguments not based on historical facts and logical argument are intolerable to me), because my main defensive point was on the Arab culture.
You call it "dark realities", and Daisy, let me assure you, that both Christians and Muslims share this beloved Arab culture, and hang on to it. If only you give a deeper look at the Jordanian blogosphere for example, you will find that it has Muslims and Christians(but you wouldn't be able to recognize which is which, because we do not differenciate between people based on religious conviction, but rather, brains), all of who are passionately celebrating a joint culture.
"..you will find that it has Muslims and Christians(but you wouldn't be able to recognize which is which, because we do not differenciate between people based on religious conviction, but rather, brains),"
Oh yeah? I think Arab (and in this case super-Arab Saudis) Camel Economics allows us to see clear differentiation of worth based on both gender and religion. But, maybe I misunderstand. Should I understand your point to be that Saudi Muslim males are mainly braniacs and therefore worth the most camels? I'm not at all sure what you mean by 'brains'. Are you saying that women, in particular Hindu women, or Sudanese men (apparently completely worthless on the camel scale; one might even say that the Sudanese have negative camel worth) are less brainy, therefore worth less .. and it has nothing to do with religious convictions, but rather brain density? Am I to understand that the reason women are not allowed to drive (for only one instance of the degraded status of females) in Saudi Arabia is not because of religious convictions but something more along the lines of absolute lack of qualification for Mensa membership by virtue of inferior chromosomal grey matter?
In the April 9, 2002 issue, The Wall Street Journal published the concept of blood money in Saudi Arabia (aka Super-Arabia). If a person has been killed or caused to die by another, the latter has to pay blood money or compensation, as follows:
100,000 riyals if the victim is a Muslim man
50,000 riyals if a Muslim woman
50,000 riyals if a Christian man
25,000 riyals if a Christian woman
6,666 riyals if a Hindu man
3,333 riyals if a Hindu woman
According to this hierarchy, a Muslim man's life is worth 33 times that of a Hindu woman. This hierarchy is based on the Islamic definition of human rights and is rooted in the Quran and Sharia (Islamic law). How can we talk of democracy when the concept of equality in Islam is non-existent? How can any person who takes democracy seriously have anything but disgust for this way of life? Then again, maybe it's simply that Hindu's are stupid and not the wrong religion after all.
By the way, what's with all the "honey's, darlings and babes"? In my culture, those are terms of endearment not contempt. Could this confusion between love and hate stem from all those spankings inflicted by entrusted authority firgures? Just wondering.
Oh yeah? I think Arab (and in this case super-Arab Saudis) Camel Economics allows us to see clear differentiation of worth based on both gender and religion. But, maybe I misunderstand. Should I understand your point to be that Saudi Muslim males are mainly braniacs and therefore worth the most camels? I'm not at all sure what you mean by 'brains'. Are you saying that women, in particular Hindu women, or Sudanese men (apparently completely worthless on the camel scale; one might even say that the Sudanese have negative camel worth) are less brainy, therefore worth less .. and it has nothing to do with religious convictions, but rather brain density? Am I to understand that the reason women are not allowed to drive (for only one instance of the degraded status of females) in Saudi Arabia is not because of religious convictions but something more along the lines of absolute lack of qualification for Mensa membership by virtue of inferior chromosomal grey matter?
In the April 9, 2002 issue, The Wall Street Journal published the concept of blood money in Saudi Arabia (aka Super-Arabia). If a person has been killed or caused to die by another, the latter has to pay blood money or compensation, as follows:
100,000 riyals if the victim is a Muslim man
50,000 riyals if a Muslim woman
50,000 riyals if a Christian man
25,000 riyals if a Christian woman
6,666 riyals if a Hindu man
3,333 riyals if a Hindu woman
According to this hierarchy, a Muslim man's life is worth 33 times that of a Hindu woman. This hierarchy is based on the Islamic definition of human rights and is rooted in the Quran and Sharia (Islamic law). How can we talk of democracy when the concept of equality in Islam is non-existent? How can any person who takes democracy seriously have anything but disgust for this way of life? Then again, maybe it's simply that Hindu's are stupid and not the wrong religion after all.
By the way, what's with all the "honey's, darlings and babes"? In my culture, those are terms of endearment not contempt. Could this confusion between love and hate stem from all those spankings inflicted by entrusted authority firgures? Just wondering.
Daisy, what makes you think we feel contempt towards you? Just because we do not agree does not make us enemies. We are all adults here, and we are carrying an intellectual debate, and we should all try to remain openminded and to gain a deeper and more profound outlook through the eyes of others.
Now, once again, you jumped to an unrelated topic. And this topic is way too complex to be talked about in a few lines. The Arab world is divided into segments, and each segment has a culture of its own, very different from the areas around it. The segments are not only divided by traditions, they are also divided by physical appearance, language(I cannot understand African Arabs), and politics.
The area where we are from is called the Levant, and Saudi Arabia is a part of the Gulf. They have their own traditions that we also do not understand nor endorse, and as a feminist, I do not approve of their traditions either. But it is their country, and some of their women are actually not too unhappy about it, so it's not really any of our business. Rest assured though, these traditions are not Islamic as much as they are social, actually, quite the contrary. Islam urges women to not remain in an enclosed area with a strange man, as is a car with a driver.
You cannot take one country that is a part of a much larger Arab world and proclaim that my culture is "bad". It is just like saying that just because you are white, you should probably belong to the Ku Klux Klan and proclaim hatred towards all races other than yourself.
Now, once again, you jumped to an unrelated topic. And this topic is way too complex to be talked about in a few lines. The Arab world is divided into segments, and each segment has a culture of its own, very different from the areas around it. The segments are not only divided by traditions, they are also divided by physical appearance, language(I cannot understand African Arabs), and politics.
The area where we are from is called the Levant, and Saudi Arabia is a part of the Gulf. They have their own traditions that we also do not understand nor endorse, and as a feminist, I do not approve of their traditions either. But it is their country, and some of their women are actually not too unhappy about it, so it's not really any of our business. Rest assured though, these traditions are not Islamic as much as they are social, actually, quite the contrary. Islam urges women to not remain in an enclosed area with a strange man, as is a car with a driver.
You cannot take one country that is a part of a much larger Arab world and proclaim that my culture is "bad". It is just like saying that just because you are white, you should probably belong to the Ku Klux Klan and proclaim hatred towards all races other than yourself.
"..Now, once again, you jumped to an unrelated topic."
Actually, I was responding directly to your claim: "..you will find that it has Muslims and Christians(but you wouldn't be able to recognize which is which, because we do not differenciate between people based on religious conviction, but rather, brains)," You deceptively evaded my response .. but isn't al-takeyyah (socially endorsed lying) a proud Muslim/Arab tradition?
However, if you would prefer even more examples of Arab/Muslim atrocities than to deal with direct responses to your statements, I give you these:
Muslim imperialism has continued without any let-up from ten years before Mohammed's death until today.
Consider the Ottoman invasion of Christian Eastern Europe in which the Ottoman Empire invaded the west and conquered and colonized Greece, all of the Balkans, Romania, Bessarabia, and Hungary, and was stopped only at the outskirts of Vienna in 1529. Consider also the Muhgal conquest of Northern India in the early 1600s. But today? Of course! In the 20th century alone:
1. Muslim Turkey has expelled approximately 1,500,000 Greeks from its empire in the east and replaced them with Turks. They have massacred approximately 2 million Armenians and replaced them with Turks in the west.
2. Muslim Turkey has invaded and occupied northern Cyprus, displacing the Greeks living there.
3. Muslim northern Sudan has conquered much of southern Sudan, literally enslaving its Christian and pagan population.
4. Indonesian imperialism has occupied all of non-Islamic western New Guinea and incorporated into Indonesia.
5. Muslim Indonesia has invaded and conquered Christian East Timor with horrible loss of life.
6. This very day, Muslim Indonesia is attempting to destroy Christianity in what used to be called the Celebes.
7. A half-dozen Arab countries have fought two to four wars (depending how you count) in an attempt to destroy Israel and occupy its territory, and is currently continuing the attempt this very day with the publicly voted consent of 55 of the world's 57 Islamic nations.
8. For no good reason, Muslim Libya has blown up western aircraft, killing many civilians.
9. Muslim Iraq, in an imperialist war of aggression, invaded and occupied Muslim Kuwait.
10. Muslim Iraq, in an imperialist act of aggression, invaded Muslim Iran with a resulting (some estimates say) death of 2 million people.
11. Muslim Albania, this very minute, is attempting to enlarge its borders at Christian Macedonia's expense.
12. Muslim Northern Nigeria has been (and is currently) an aggressor against the Christian south.
13. Muslims expelled approximately 800,000 Jews from their homelands between 1947 and 1955.
14. During Jordan's occupation of the West Bank, the kingdom undertook an unsuccessful attempt to make Jerusalem a Muslim city by forcing out approximately 10,000 Christian inhabitants.
North, South, East and West .. look and you will see Muslim Imperialism, with all its fearful impotency and terroristic tactics, still going for the world domination ordered by Allah.
Now Ammar has pointed to Hiroshima as an atrocity committed by the USA against Japan. Any reasonably moral person would have a sense of aversion to the terrible human toll that was enacted on the people of Hiroshima. However, it is possible to understand Hiroshima as putting an end to a war of aggression launched by the Japanese against the US, thereby effectively reducing the potential human carnage that would have resulted as a result of Imperial Japan's relentless efforts to conquer a better nation. And no, Ammar, we cannot settle for conspiracy theories, much as the Muslims love them, the Japanese were not about to make any such thing as a peace offering.
And as far as my naming contempt when I see it (and I do see it in most of the reactions to my responses. "Honey, darling and babe" were used as put downs. Perhaps this seems normal to you since misogyny is so deeply installed in the ME. It is not noraml in the USA. ) this practice of freely telling the truth is an American phenomena that you may not be able to personally practice having spent your formative years in a culture formed by the totalitarianism of Islamic ideology.
I can understand this because I understand that, while all people are created equal, not all religions (or cultures) have that same benefit. The American Lindas have not been served well by propaganda they've been subjected to that says otherwise. The American Lindas would do well to realize that the multiculturalism nonsense they've been fed for life has no such equivalent in Islam or the ME, or, for that matter, any other tyrant -ruled place in the world. The American Lindas ought to know that the respect they afford the hell-holes of the world is not even slightly reciprocal. And finally, the American Lindas ought to stop sucking up to the wanna be oppressors and get themselves some self-esteem before it's too late and they live in real and absolute dhimmitude to the Muslim Colonial-Imperialist imperative.
Actually, I was responding directly to your claim: "..you will find that it has Muslims and Christians(but you wouldn't be able to recognize which is which, because we do not differenciate between people based on religious conviction, but rather, brains)," You deceptively evaded my response .. but isn't al-takeyyah (socially endorsed lying) a proud Muslim/Arab tradition?
However, if you would prefer even more examples of Arab/Muslim atrocities than to deal with direct responses to your statements, I give you these:
Muslim imperialism has continued without any let-up from ten years before Mohammed's death until today.
Consider the Ottoman invasion of Christian Eastern Europe in which the Ottoman Empire invaded the west and conquered and colonized Greece, all of the Balkans, Romania, Bessarabia, and Hungary, and was stopped only at the outskirts of Vienna in 1529. Consider also the Muhgal conquest of Northern India in the early 1600s. But today? Of course! In the 20th century alone:
1. Muslim Turkey has expelled approximately 1,500,000 Greeks from its empire in the east and replaced them with Turks. They have massacred approximately 2 million Armenians and replaced them with Turks in the west.
2. Muslim Turkey has invaded and occupied northern Cyprus, displacing the Greeks living there.
3. Muslim northern Sudan has conquered much of southern Sudan, literally enslaving its Christian and pagan population.
4. Indonesian imperialism has occupied all of non-Islamic western New Guinea and incorporated into Indonesia.
5. Muslim Indonesia has invaded and conquered Christian East Timor with horrible loss of life.
6. This very day, Muslim Indonesia is attempting to destroy Christianity in what used to be called the Celebes.
7. A half-dozen Arab countries have fought two to four wars (depending how you count) in an attempt to destroy Israel and occupy its territory, and is currently continuing the attempt this very day with the publicly voted consent of 55 of the world's 57 Islamic nations.
8. For no good reason, Muslim Libya has blown up western aircraft, killing many civilians.
9. Muslim Iraq, in an imperialist war of aggression, invaded and occupied Muslim Kuwait.
10. Muslim Iraq, in an imperialist act of aggression, invaded Muslim Iran with a resulting (some estimates say) death of 2 million people.
11. Muslim Albania, this very minute, is attempting to enlarge its borders at Christian Macedonia's expense.
12. Muslim Northern Nigeria has been (and is currently) an aggressor against the Christian south.
13. Muslims expelled approximately 800,000 Jews from their homelands between 1947 and 1955.
14. During Jordan's occupation of the West Bank, the kingdom undertook an unsuccessful attempt to make Jerusalem a Muslim city by forcing out approximately 10,000 Christian inhabitants.
North, South, East and West .. look and you will see Muslim Imperialism, with all its fearful impotency and terroristic tactics, still going for the world domination ordered by Allah.
Now Ammar has pointed to Hiroshima as an atrocity committed by the USA against Japan. Any reasonably moral person would have a sense of aversion to the terrible human toll that was enacted on the people of Hiroshima. However, it is possible to understand Hiroshima as putting an end to a war of aggression launched by the Japanese against the US, thereby effectively reducing the potential human carnage that would have resulted as a result of Imperial Japan's relentless efforts to conquer a better nation. And no, Ammar, we cannot settle for conspiracy theories, much as the Muslims love them, the Japanese were not about to make any such thing as a peace offering.
And as far as my naming contempt when I see it (and I do see it in most of the reactions to my responses. "Honey, darling and babe" were used as put downs. Perhaps this seems normal to you since misogyny is so deeply installed in the ME. It is not noraml in the USA. ) this practice of freely telling the truth is an American phenomena that you may not be able to personally practice having spent your formative years in a culture formed by the totalitarianism of Islamic ideology.
I can understand this because I understand that, while all people are created equal, not all religions (or cultures) have that same benefit. The American Lindas have not been served well by propaganda they've been subjected to that says otherwise. The American Lindas would do well to realize that the multiculturalism nonsense they've been fed for life has no such equivalent in Islam or the ME, or, for that matter, any other tyrant -ruled place in the world. The American Lindas ought to know that the respect they afford the hell-holes of the world is not even slightly reciprocal. And finally, the American Lindas ought to stop sucking up to the wanna be oppressors and get themselves some self-esteem before it's too late and they live in real and absolute dhimmitude to the Muslim Colonial-Imperialist imperative.
By the way Daisy honey, before you go on throwing all these accusations at us...PLEASE get your facts right. I am not going to go into the other points that have been discussed because i think everyone else has properly made the point. The only thing i am going to comment on is the aspect of "Honor" murders. Honey, Islam never obliged anyone to kill for the reason of honor as you say... I really am shocked by the fact that you claim reading about Islam and arriving to this conclusion "they are proclaimed as religious obligations by Muslims". That is very NOT true...I am very anti-Honor Crimes but i cannot stand the fact that you claim they are an obligation by Islam....Please go do some research before talking and throwing accusations here and there.......
DAISY,
The problem I am finding with your claims is that you think the Arab world, culture and Islam is all bad, and what ever you are is all grand and beautiful. Think about this and please tel me if you agree? All cultures, religions, places, etc have negative aspects because certain people belonging to these groups mess it up for the rest.
Now you want to talk about worth? Lets do that. In the state of California, and many other states for that matter, we the people exploit illegal aliens for their cheap labor. And it is not like this is being done on the down low. The government is well aware of it, but does not do anything about it because they believe real American's gardens, homes, etc are worth more than the labor of some illegal from across the border.
And lets see what type of clothing many of us Amercans wear. Most American companies exploit the labor of of all kinds of people over seas. So I guess Americans and their clothing are worth more than these poor people who are working in sweat shops under disgusting conditions for practically nothing.
Again, I repeat, before you go pointing fingers, take a look at your own country and what it does. And as a true American, thats the best thing I can do, is question my country, so that we can learn from our mistakes. Maybe you should try that one day!
The problem I am finding with your claims is that you think the Arab world, culture and Islam is all bad, and what ever you are is all grand and beautiful. Think about this and please tel me if you agree? All cultures, religions, places, etc have negative aspects because certain people belonging to these groups mess it up for the rest.
Now you want to talk about worth? Lets do that. In the state of California, and many other states for that matter, we the people exploit illegal aliens for their cheap labor. And it is not like this is being done on the down low. The government is well aware of it, but does not do anything about it because they believe real American's gardens, homes, etc are worth more than the labor of some illegal from across the border.
And lets see what type of clothing many of us Amercans wear. Most American companies exploit the labor of of all kinds of people over seas. So I guess Americans and their clothing are worth more than these poor people who are working in sweat shops under disgusting conditions for practically nothing.
Again, I repeat, before you go pointing fingers, take a look at your own country and what it does. And as a true American, thats the best thing I can do, is question my country, so that we can learn from our mistakes. Maybe you should try that one day!
Apologies to Ammar. It is tbob, after all, who if misinformed about Japan/Hiroshima.
Daisy,
Correct my misinformation.
Four your own predisposed information, the weapons used on Hisroshima, and Nagazaki, are nowadays internationally banned by the UN heads in the US!!!
Is it that the US believes that Japs are worth more now 40 years later??
Or is it hypocrisy and bigotry that led the same nation to disapprove weapons they used 40 years ago??
Correct my misinformation.
Four your own predisposed information, the weapons used on Hisroshima, and Nagazaki, are nowadays internationally banned by the UN heads in the US!!!
Is it that the US believes that Japs are worth more now 40 years later??
Or is it hypocrisy and bigotry that led the same nation to disapprove weapons they used 40 years ago??
Oh my gosh .. just couldn't resist this challenge for the multi-cultic American Lindas and their opportunistic Arabian followers.
I dare you to make this morally equivalent. Go ahead, you can do it. After all, everything is the same as everything else, isn't it (excepting, of course, Americans, who are always at fault for everything that goes wrong)?
Rules for the contest : Read the following article. You must make the actions and moral decisions described in the article equivalent to Christianity &/or Western civilization. You may not blame the USA for the cannibals or anything else.
Ready, set, go! Read and defend. (hint: you do have a leg up. They ate Muslims AND Christians and one of the murderers claims to have a 'conscience'.)
Suspected member of ‘cannibal gang’ yields, confirms reports on cannibalism
By BONG REBLANDO
GENERAL SANTOS CITY — One of the suspects in the grisly murder of a villager in Glan, Sarangani whose flesh was eaten and his blood drank by a "cannibal gang," was taken into custody, police said.
Senior Supt. Efren Valeriano, Sarangani police director, said Ruben Latang Jr., brother of Sabino and Angelito Latang, who were earlier captured by the police, surrendered to the police station in Glan with the help of Barangay Captain Boy Roque of Laguimit.
Before his surrender, another suspect, Enrique Dundan, yielded to the police in Glan, Valeriano stated in a report to Chief Supt. Danilo Mangila, Central Mindanao police chief.
Operatives of the police in nearby Jose Abad Santos town, Davao del Sur, backed up by Glan policemen, arrested Sabino and Angelito Latang for the killing of Celso Lamitod, barangay tanod of Riod del Pilar, Glan.
Mangila had ordered Valeriano to conduct a hunt for the "cannibal gang," which has sown terror in the far-flung villages at the borders of Glan, Sarangani and Jose Abad Santos in Davao del Sur.
In the 70s to 80s, the first "cannibalism" pratice was attributed to the group of "Kumander Bucay," whose members were reported to have eaten the flesh of their Muslim victims during the "Ilaga" and Moro rebel fighting.
Norberto Manero Jr., chieftain of the dreaded "Ilaga," a para-military group, was even convicted of slaying of Italian priest Fr. Tulio Favalli in Tulunan, North Cotabato, where, he and his brother allegedly tasted the brain of the slain priest.
In a press conference, Ruben Latang admitted that he took part in the killing of Lamitod last month but said, unlike his brothers Sabino and Angelito and the other gang members, he "did not eat the victim’s flesh nor drink his blood."
Ruben said his conscience was bothering him everyday and has no peace of mind so he decided to surrender with the help of his friend, Barangay Captain Roque.
Also, the suspect confessed that the "cannibal gang" killed Lamitod for his unpaid debt of only R40.
He confirmed that the "cannibal gang" did eat the "human heart and liver" of their victims and drink their blood, believing that it is an effective "amulet" to protect them from bullets and bladed weapons.
"It’s true that my brothers Sabino and Angelito and the rest of the gang, except me, took part in eating the flesh and drinking the blood of our victims as part of a ritual to acquired an amulet," Ruben Latang told reporters.
Like I said, not all religions or cultures are created equal. But, I'd still love to see the contest results so go for it!
I dare you to make this morally equivalent. Go ahead, you can do it. After all, everything is the same as everything else, isn't it (excepting, of course, Americans, who are always at fault for everything that goes wrong)?
Rules for the contest : Read the following article. You must make the actions and moral decisions described in the article equivalent to Christianity &/or Western civilization. You may not blame the USA for the cannibals or anything else.
Ready, set, go! Read and defend. (hint: you do have a leg up. They ate Muslims AND Christians and one of the murderers claims to have a 'conscience'.)
Suspected member of ‘cannibal gang’ yields, confirms reports on cannibalism
By BONG REBLANDO
GENERAL SANTOS CITY — One of the suspects in the grisly murder of a villager in Glan, Sarangani whose flesh was eaten and his blood drank by a "cannibal gang," was taken into custody, police said.
Senior Supt. Efren Valeriano, Sarangani police director, said Ruben Latang Jr., brother of Sabino and Angelito Latang, who were earlier captured by the police, surrendered to the police station in Glan with the help of Barangay Captain Boy Roque of Laguimit.
Before his surrender, another suspect, Enrique Dundan, yielded to the police in Glan, Valeriano stated in a report to Chief Supt. Danilo Mangila, Central Mindanao police chief.
Operatives of the police in nearby Jose Abad Santos town, Davao del Sur, backed up by Glan policemen, arrested Sabino and Angelito Latang for the killing of Celso Lamitod, barangay tanod of Riod del Pilar, Glan.
Mangila had ordered Valeriano to conduct a hunt for the "cannibal gang," which has sown terror in the far-flung villages at the borders of Glan, Sarangani and Jose Abad Santos in Davao del Sur.
In the 70s to 80s, the first "cannibalism" pratice was attributed to the group of "Kumander Bucay," whose members were reported to have eaten the flesh of their Muslim victims during the "Ilaga" and Moro rebel fighting.
Norberto Manero Jr., chieftain of the dreaded "Ilaga," a para-military group, was even convicted of slaying of Italian priest Fr. Tulio Favalli in Tulunan, North Cotabato, where, he and his brother allegedly tasted the brain of the slain priest.
In a press conference, Ruben Latang admitted that he took part in the killing of Lamitod last month but said, unlike his brothers Sabino and Angelito and the other gang members, he "did not eat the victim’s flesh nor drink his blood."
Ruben said his conscience was bothering him everyday and has no peace of mind so he decided to surrender with the help of his friend, Barangay Captain Roque.
Also, the suspect confessed that the "cannibal gang" killed Lamitod for his unpaid debt of only R40.
He confirmed that the "cannibal gang" did eat the "human heart and liver" of their victims and drink their blood, believing that it is an effective "amulet" to protect them from bullets and bladed weapons.
"It’s true that my brothers Sabino and Angelito and the rest of the gang, except me, took part in eating the flesh and drinking the blood of our victims as part of a ritual to acquired an amulet," Ruben Latang told reporters.
Like I said, not all religions or cultures are created equal. But, I'd still love to see the contest results so go for it!
Daisy, again, I beg you to research your facts.
What launched this debate was Jordan, my country. Ammar was referring to the attack occurring in the Jordanian port city of Aqaba. He was addressing the Jordanians who were looking at this incident with a narrow perspective, and he was saying do not be like Americans, we, as Jordanians, are aware of the political, social, and historical incidents that caused this modern climax to occur. I did not back what he said, and what he said does not reflect the opinions of all Arabs, but ironically, what you are doing with this debate is endorsing Ammar's sentence- Americans are ignorant of political and historical incidents.
I was taught, by this culture that you say is bad, to respect all opinions around me. Although yours is racist, illogical, and superficial, my job is not to persuade you otherwise, because I honestly don't care what Daisy thinks. I am only correcting your "facts" because ignorance is treason.
The topic in question was an attack happening on Jordanian soil.
The debate was launched by this, "What supplies the fuel for the ignorance and hatred is Arab culture, which is mainly formed by Islam". I corrected you, and told you that Arab culture is not formed by Islam. We have the most diverse history in terms of religions and civilizations, and our culture was formed by millennia of diversity. Then, I corrected your misinformed view of Islam by simply stating facts and not opinions.
Your reply to this was that "my passion and pride" in my religion are moving, and again, I corrected you and told you I am not a religious person, I follow logic rather than notions. Then, to help you rid yourself of your stereotypical notions through the use of logic, I told you to check the Jordanian blogosphere, a very small part of the Arab world but a part nonetheless.
You overlook my example, and bring up Saudi Arabia, something that has nothing to do with what we're talking about, and I patiently explained to you that it is not the model Arabic country in the eyes of Arabs.
So you accuse me of "deceptively evading" your response, and you mention "Al-takkeyah", which actually means God-fearing and honest. Again, please research your claims. Islam, like every single other religion ever created, endorses truth and condemns lying, and I assure you that Arabs also do not have any social traditions that ask them to lie.
Then, you go on to give examples of atrocities.
The Ottomans, my dear Daisy, are not Arab. They are Seljuk tribes which rose to power in the 13th century, and ascended to occupy both Arab and Western countries. They ruled the Arab world for many centuries, and they only left our Arab countries forcefully in 1910 after a war with the Arab Allies. You see, religion and politics are unrelated.
Turkey is one of the countries that separate religion from ruling. They're not Arab, their government is not Muslim, and the reason is political and claimed to be social. In the early 1900's, there were a series of reforms with the aim of westernizing Turkey, these included: a secular government and education. Its political decisions are strictly secular. As for the invasion, Turkey invaded the island in 1974 in response to an Athens backed coup of the island, and it states that it was invoking its role under the Treaty of Guarantee to ensure the independence of the island and protection of its Turkish Cypriot minority.
Sudan "conquered" with political aims, but America killed so many American Indians under claim that they are savages.
Jordan never expelled any Christians out of anywhere. During the Crusades, which the church is still apologizing for, Arab Christians fought along side the Muslims against the oppression of the church. I will not say anything about provide parallel examples to what you have mentioned using Christianity though, because a lot of my friends are Christians, and I will not say anything that might offend them for a little, narrow minded American such as yourself.
I can go on and on with your facts 1 to 14, but I just reached the ones about Israel, Jews, and Jerusalem, and that is one topic I just cannot tolerate lack of knowledge on. I will not even tackle this topic here because I decided that you are not worthy.
You make me back up Ammar; insular, brainwashed, and ignorant fools.
This will be my last comment on this topic. I have tried to talk to you with tolerance and reason, and with the goal of sharing knowledge rather than convincing, but you remain an ignorant fool.
Any civilized person who will read this string will see how you boorishly accused Arabs and Islam of being "below others" without supporting your claims with facts, but rather with false allegations that result from ignorance. We calmly explained to you things from a first hand point of view, but you remain insolent.
I pity you.
What launched this debate was Jordan, my country. Ammar was referring to the attack occurring in the Jordanian port city of Aqaba. He was addressing the Jordanians who were looking at this incident with a narrow perspective, and he was saying do not be like Americans, we, as Jordanians, are aware of the political, social, and historical incidents that caused this modern climax to occur. I did not back what he said, and what he said does not reflect the opinions of all Arabs, but ironically, what you are doing with this debate is endorsing Ammar's sentence- Americans are ignorant of political and historical incidents.
I was taught, by this culture that you say is bad, to respect all opinions around me. Although yours is racist, illogical, and superficial, my job is not to persuade you otherwise, because I honestly don't care what Daisy thinks. I am only correcting your "facts" because ignorance is treason.
The topic in question was an attack happening on Jordanian soil.
The debate was launched by this, "What supplies the fuel for the ignorance and hatred is Arab culture, which is mainly formed by Islam". I corrected you, and told you that Arab culture is not formed by Islam. We have the most diverse history in terms of religions and civilizations, and our culture was formed by millennia of diversity. Then, I corrected your misinformed view of Islam by simply stating facts and not opinions.
Your reply to this was that "my passion and pride" in my religion are moving, and again, I corrected you and told you I am not a religious person, I follow logic rather than notions. Then, to help you rid yourself of your stereotypical notions through the use of logic, I told you to check the Jordanian blogosphere, a very small part of the Arab world but a part nonetheless.
You overlook my example, and bring up Saudi Arabia, something that has nothing to do with what we're talking about, and I patiently explained to you that it is not the model Arabic country in the eyes of Arabs.
So you accuse me of "deceptively evading" your response, and you mention "Al-takkeyah", which actually means God-fearing and honest. Again, please research your claims. Islam, like every single other religion ever created, endorses truth and condemns lying, and I assure you that Arabs also do not have any social traditions that ask them to lie.
Then, you go on to give examples of atrocities.
The Ottomans, my dear Daisy, are not Arab. They are Seljuk tribes which rose to power in the 13th century, and ascended to occupy both Arab and Western countries. They ruled the Arab world for many centuries, and they only left our Arab countries forcefully in 1910 after a war with the Arab Allies. You see, religion and politics are unrelated.
Turkey is one of the countries that separate religion from ruling. They're not Arab, their government is not Muslim, and the reason is political and claimed to be social. In the early 1900's, there were a series of reforms with the aim of westernizing Turkey, these included: a secular government and education. Its political decisions are strictly secular. As for the invasion, Turkey invaded the island in 1974 in response to an Athens backed coup of the island, and it states that it was invoking its role under the Treaty of Guarantee to ensure the independence of the island and protection of its Turkish Cypriot minority.
Sudan "conquered" with political aims, but America killed so many American Indians under claim that they are savages.
Jordan never expelled any Christians out of anywhere. During the Crusades, which the church is still apologizing for, Arab Christians fought along side the Muslims against the oppression of the church. I will not say anything about provide parallel examples to what you have mentioned using Christianity though, because a lot of my friends are Christians, and I will not say anything that might offend them for a little, narrow minded American such as yourself.
I can go on and on with your facts 1 to 14, but I just reached the ones about Israel, Jews, and Jerusalem, and that is one topic I just cannot tolerate lack of knowledge on. I will not even tackle this topic here because I decided that you are not worthy.
You make me back up Ammar; insular, brainwashed, and ignorant fools.
This will be my last comment on this topic. I have tried to talk to you with tolerance and reason, and with the goal of sharing knowledge rather than convincing, but you remain an ignorant fool.
Any civilized person who will read this string will see how you boorishly accused Arabs and Islam of being "below others" without supporting your claims with facts, but rather with false allegations that result from ignorance. We calmly explained to you things from a first hand point of view, but you remain insolent.
I pity you.
So you accuse me of "deceptively evading" your response, and you mention "Al-takkeyah", which actually means God-fearing and honest. Again, please research your claims. Islam, like every single other religion ever created, endorses truth and condemns lying, and I assure you that Arabs also do not have any social traditions that ask them to lie.
this is what Roba wrote...
I think that there is a miss-understanding here...
*I think Daisy meant "Al Tokya" (which is lying to save yourself), but this -if i can say- tradition is practiced by a some of "Al shee'a" (Al shee3a) and those people are NOT Muslims even if they said they are.
*what Roba meant is "Al Takwa".
*I think that Roba and most Muslims didn't even hear about "Al Tokya" because it is not from our Islam.
*I'm wondering how Daisy know about it and refering it to Islam while most Muslims don't know what does it mean.
*well said Roba, and I think that replying to Daisy is just a wast of time since she refuses to open her mind.
this is what Roba wrote...
I think that there is a miss-understanding here...
*I think Daisy meant "Al Tokya" (which is lying to save yourself), but this -if i can say- tradition is practiced by a some of "Al shee'a" (Al shee3a) and those people are NOT Muslims even if they said they are.
*what Roba meant is "Al Takwa".
*I think that Roba and most Muslims didn't even hear about "Al Tokya" because it is not from our Islam.
*I'm wondering how Daisy know about it and refering it to Islam while most Muslims don't know what does it mean.
*well said Roba, and I think that replying to Daisy is just a wast of time since she refuses to open her mind.
Daisy, if a man said that he is Muslim and he was bad, it dosen't mean that Islam is bad.
even if there is a billion of this man.
even if there is a billion of this man.
"Daisy, if a man said that he is Muslim and he was bad, it dosen't mean that Islam is bad.
even if there is a billion of this man."
Ahmad, don't you think that if a billion bad Muslims were claiming they were good it would be about time to question Islam's role in the problem?
even if there is a billion of this man."
Ahmad, don't you think that if a billion bad Muslims were claiming they were good it would be about time to question Islam's role in the problem?
Roba, a lie by any other name is still a lie. Your evasiveness is a form of dishonesty, no matter your attempts to cloak it in pseudo-reason.
I said, " Muslim imperialism has continued without any let-up from ten years before Mohammed's death until today."
Your attempt to counteract my 14 factual points by pretending I said Arab imperialism is a factual failure, since you misrepresented what was actually claimed and it's a moral failing (at least in Western terms) because you lied.
Christians have apologized for any wrongdoing committed in the Crusades. This aplogizing was not a mistake for Christians but, since apologies are unknown in Islam and Arabia .. they are mistaken as weakness. I guess being Islamist or Arabist means never having to say your sorry. Additionally, even if some of the crusaders were opportunistic louts, the Crusades were, for the most part, well conducted and successful efforts against Muslim Imperialism.
You say, "I can go on and on with your facts 1 to 14, but I just reached the ones about Israel, Jews, and Jerusalem, and that is one topic I just cannot tolerate lack of knowledge on. I will not even tackle this topic here because I decided that you are not worthy." Spoken like a real Arab. You attempt to lecture me about how tolerant you are and then claim I am "unworthy". You cannot accuse me of dishonesty. I don't pretend to accept all religions/cultures as equal. You pretend to tolerate, but, in fact you don't. Your bias shows clearly. You have nothing but nothing to teach me about Jews. I am a proud member of a religion and culture that is based on Judeo-Christian moral tenets and beliefs. You are from a culture that dhimmitizes both. You will have ot deal with things as they are sooner or later. Why not sooner?
I said, " Muslim imperialism has continued without any let-up from ten years before Mohammed's death until today."
Your attempt to counteract my 14 factual points by pretending I said Arab imperialism is a factual failure, since you misrepresented what was actually claimed and it's a moral failing (at least in Western terms) because you lied.
Christians have apologized for any wrongdoing committed in the Crusades. This aplogizing was not a mistake for Christians but, since apologies are unknown in Islam and Arabia .. they are mistaken as weakness. I guess being Islamist or Arabist means never having to say your sorry. Additionally, even if some of the crusaders were opportunistic louts, the Crusades were, for the most part, well conducted and successful efforts against Muslim Imperialism.
You say, "I can go on and on with your facts 1 to 14, but I just reached the ones about Israel, Jews, and Jerusalem, and that is one topic I just cannot tolerate lack of knowledge on. I will not even tackle this topic here because I decided that you are not worthy." Spoken like a real Arab. You attempt to lecture me about how tolerant you are and then claim I am "unworthy". You cannot accuse me of dishonesty. I don't pretend to accept all religions/cultures as equal. You pretend to tolerate, but, in fact you don't. Your bias shows clearly. You have nothing but nothing to teach me about Jews. I am a proud member of a religion and culture that is based on Judeo-Christian moral tenets and beliefs. You are from a culture that dhimmitizes both. You will have ot deal with things as they are sooner or later. Why not sooner?
Well, after the third comment I had to stop reading. All crap.
I think everyone of you has missed one HUGE point in this. The whole wars etc etc yadda yadda are not about religion anymore. Bush, Hitler, Bin Laden, Sharon..... they all use(d) religion as a tool for gaining power and money. Do you really think that the bombing on 9/11 was to anyones favor?!
On that day everybody lost, except of people who invested in Gold, because gold doubled on that day, however that is another story. Does anyone really believe that the attack on Afghanistan was to anyones favour? Yes, the american oilindustry won. Does anyone think the attack on Irak was to anyones favour?
Ok, Saddam is gone, good, great, yeppeeeeh, but to what price?
Even more chaos and suffering giving more power to hypocritic (I would even say SATANIC) "Islamist" groups.
Why do I say satanic? Well, a stanist is someone who puts himself on the same level as god, and that is what they do, what Bush does, what throughout history every big (war) leadrship did.
Man really, it does not matter what religion you are, if you are in this war you can be christian, jewish or muslim. You will be put accordingly into some drawer and from different perspectives you'll be attacked. Everywhere I look there is propaganda and more propaganda for this all over ugly war.
The only ones who gain are the leaders of this dirty games but we, the civilians are the ones who should refuse to support any of those. Violence only causes more violence and only by supporting any one of the extreme sides you become technically a murderer no matter to what side.
Talking about religions themselves, they are (most of them) very tolerant but it is the human who made it bad.
The church abused christianity for their own good to make money. The Assasin used Islam to recruit assasins. I can go on and on and on with examples of how the human disordered religion and made it become something cruel, something intolerant.
Something that was created to make peace has become something to create wars and suffering.
The human species is very talented in destroying and we should all pick our own nose.
Open your eyes and open your mind.
I was taught throughout the years of Islam and Christianity and I never found a big difference in their essentials. Only the way they were carried out was different....well not even really that.
However, who am I to judge. I am also only human.
I think everyone of you has missed one HUGE point in this. The whole wars etc etc yadda yadda are not about religion anymore. Bush, Hitler, Bin Laden, Sharon..... they all use(d) religion as a tool for gaining power and money. Do you really think that the bombing on 9/11 was to anyones favor?!
On that day everybody lost, except of people who invested in Gold, because gold doubled on that day, however that is another story. Does anyone really believe that the attack on Afghanistan was to anyones favour? Yes, the american oilindustry won. Does anyone think the attack on Irak was to anyones favour?
Ok, Saddam is gone, good, great, yeppeeeeh, but to what price?
Even more chaos and suffering giving more power to hypocritic (I would even say SATANIC) "Islamist" groups.
Why do I say satanic? Well, a stanist is someone who puts himself on the same level as god, and that is what they do, what Bush does, what throughout history every big (war) leadrship did.
Man really, it does not matter what religion you are, if you are in this war you can be christian, jewish or muslim. You will be put accordingly into some drawer and from different perspectives you'll be attacked. Everywhere I look there is propaganda and more propaganda for this all over ugly war.
The only ones who gain are the leaders of this dirty games but we, the civilians are the ones who should refuse to support any of those. Violence only causes more violence and only by supporting any one of the extreme sides you become technically a murderer no matter to what side.
Talking about religions themselves, they are (most of them) very tolerant but it is the human who made it bad.
The church abused christianity for their own good to make money. The Assasin used Islam to recruit assasins. I can go on and on and on with examples of how the human disordered religion and made it become something cruel, something intolerant.
Something that was created to make peace has become something to create wars and suffering.
The human species is very talented in destroying and we should all pick our own nose.
Open your eyes and open your mind.
I was taught throughout the years of Islam and Christianity and I never found a big difference in their essentials. Only the way they were carried out was different....well not even really that.
However, who am I to judge. I am also only human.
Quicksearch
Recent Entries
My Favorite Pro Palestinian Song
I need your opinion...
Sending Emails with MIME attachments on Linux from the shell
Back to Italy...
PHP developers needed
Thursday, August 28 2008
I need your opinion...
Wednesday, August 27 2008
Sending Emails with MIME attachments on Linux from the shell
Sunday, July 13 2008
Back to Italy...
Thursday, May 22 2008
PHP developers needed
Thursday, April 17 2008
